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PC_03-21-79_Meeting_Minutes(PC 3/21/79) p. 1 MINUTES OF THE MEETING OF THE FREDERICK COUNTY PLANNING COMMISSION PRESENT: C. Langdon Gordon, Chairman; Frank Brumback, Vice - Chairman; Manuel DeHaven; James Golladay, Jr.; W. French Kirk; Elmer Venskoske; Thomas B. Rosenberger CALL TO ORDER The Chairman called the meeting to order and proceeded to the first order of business. The minutes of the meeting of February 7 were corrected as follows: Page 2 -- "Tisiner" amended to read "Tisinger" Page 5 -- "establisha" should read "establish a" Page 6 -- "Proram" should read "Program" Page 6 -- "highly recommended" questioned but allowed The minutes of the meeting of March 7 were read and accepted. Upon motion by Mr. Kirk, seconded by Mr. Golladay, and approved by all, BE IT RESOLVED, that the minutes of February 7 and March 7 be accepted as corrected. BIMONTHLY REPORT The Bimonthly Report was received as information. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Request for site plan approval by the Development Corporation of America for two stores at Rt. 7 and I 81, Stonewall District. ACTION -- Tabled for Two Weeks Asked for background, Mr. Berg indicated that the agenda contained much pertinent information, including the recommendation section of the transportation plan for the D.C.A. He explained that the east entrance as proposed is not shown on the site plan. The center entrance, meant to serve the food and drug stores, is planned to be constructed at this time, and referred to in the transportation study. Present entrance plan has been approved by the Department of Highways. The erosion and sedimentation control plan has also been approved, 632 (PC 3/21/79) p. 2 by the Department of Public Works When queried by Mr. Brumback, Mr. Berg said the traffic light required is to be installed at the developer's expense, and has been approved to go in when needed. Mr. Golladay's question led to a clarification: there are to be two lanes entering, two out, with room for a third coming out. Petitioners were called forth: Mr. Scott Bair, Mr. Glenn Bair, Mr. J. Sloan Kuykendall, Mr. Jay Wetzel, and Mr. David Krebs. Mr. Kuykendall introduced Mr. Scott Bair. Mr. Bair said: "I have never in my fifty years of business life started a project that I didn't finish." He emphasized that he felt the region -- not so much Winchester -- needed a shopping center to serve the adjacent 10 counties of Virginia and the six of West Virginia. His studies have shown "a deficiency in sales of general merchandise of $188 million annually." He stressed that the project "will be in keeping with historic Winchester, it'll be white, and it will make a beautiful presentation." He claimed execution, or near - execution, of 62 leases. "We expect to have high -class stores." "Gentlemen, I can tell you now that this is the shopping center that'll be developed, and we don't deal in rumors." He repeated, "This'is going to be built. We have a lead, we have the water and sewer there, we're going to start on the Safeway and Drug Fair stores, if we get a permit here, within the next 30 days." His claim: center will employ over 2,000 people. Says some $15 million or more will be spent there in the next 24 months. Talked of 150 -room Sheraton Motel scheduled for upper left -hand corner of (his) drawing, at 7 & 81. He says his project will be finished, and in the near future. He added that a third entrance "has already been arranged for, we have the documents here today, and this will be built from the second cross -over east of 81, by the Apple Cart. This will pick up the traffic coming from the east and lead it directly into the center of the shopping center, to eliminate any congestion down further, where they come into Safeway and Drug Fair." 633 (PC. 721/79) p. 3 Mr. Rosenberger asked about competition in mall development, to which Mr. Bair replied, "They endeavor to develop." He described the early history of his Salisbury mall; zoning board turned down his request, he went to court, won out. All of this consumed two years. According to his account, he invited the developers of another mall in the same area to join forces with him, but was refused. Mr. Rosenberger asked him about the anchor stores, and Mr. Bair said, "We're going to have four. They're all being spoken with," to which Mr. Rosenberger returned, "Is that a reality or just something in the making ?" Mr. Bair's rejoinder to that was that they are real even though not under contract today. "They'll be there in due time." The Chairman invited Mr. Kuykendall to interject his thoughts here; Mr. Kuykendall disclaimed having any factual offering but mentioned the site plan location as strategic, the access to highways as good, and the reality as that it will be developed as projected. He mentioned his own connection with the property in the past, and pointed to future nature of Rti 7 as dual highway all the way to Leesburg soon and extended to Washington. HeLffered to obtain any information needed or requested. At Mr. Wetzel's suggestion, Mr. Kuykendall appended the comment that this was the first stage of the development for approval, an 8 -ac i re lot involved, with a highway- approved entrance for the Drug Fair and Safeway, and he appealed for approval of this first stage. Mr. Golladay asked if right -of -way had been acquired for the third road. "Yes, sir," said Mr. Bair, "we have the evidence right here." This was confirmed by Glenn Bair in the form of statements of intent from the three owners, the Apple Cart, the Hughes estate, and Snapp. The details are still being worked out. Mr. Scott Bair interjected that two have been closed and one has not. Mr. Brumback expressed the Planning Commission's concern: the overview of the entire project. He gave as his personal concern the matter of the traffic problem, highway department approval of the other two entrances. Mr. Bair said the Highway Department wanted to see the third entrance, no question about 634 (PC 3/21/79) p. 4 that. when discussion arose :.. ' about a sixty -foot right -of -way being adequate to the mall, Mr. Berg interposed a previously ignored contingency: that right -of- way, he said, will have to serve more than the mall. The east entrance will also have to serve the Hughes property. i Chairman Gordon asked Mr. Bair the total size of the D.C.A. tract; the answer was 100 to 105 acres. In discussing traffic flow, Mr. Berg pointed out that Phase I traffic alone could not be predicted on basis of the study. The Chairman added that the traffic report assumes the finished mall. Questioned by Mr. Venskoske about the size of the Hughes property, Mr. Bair said 200 acres; we're acquiring 30 acres, a northern parcel. The balance lies beyond the shopping area. They're thinking of zoning that residential, Mr. Bair acknowledged. Mr. Scott Bair several times expressed the view that his mall would "make Winchester the metropolis of the Shenandoah region." "We have 4,000 feet on 81," he declared. Mr. Golladay took the tack of assuming completion of the mall as planned -- Mr. Scott Bair broke in to announce that it would be built -- and the development of the Hughes property as a frame to the question "Whose responsibility would it be to widen the road if an 80 -foot right -of -way is needed ?" Mr. Berg's response was that probably before the Hughes property could be developed, something would have to be done with that road. I£ they have 170 acres and they develop 3 units to the acre, that would be 510, in terms of single occupancy, and that's going to produce about 3,500 vehicle trips per day in addition to the mall's which would have to be carried by this roadway. There will have to be some kind of intersection approved by the Highway Department to extend this on into this portion of the Hughes property. The Chairman said the primary concern before the P.C. is traffic, ingress and egress; added that it was too bad that no representative of the highway department was on hand, and asked if specific conversation on the subject of the other two entrances had yet been held with them. Mr'. Berg answered that he has 635 (PC 3/21/79) p. 5 had such conversation, and said they felt that this entrance, serving primarily as an exit for west -bound Winchester and 81 -bound traffic, could be approved Mr. Bair conceded that "we never figured on the west entrance turning any way but west, there'd be no cross -over traffic there." Mr. Berg said he had not talked to the highway people in detail about the proposed eastern entrance. They had contacted him to say that the road was not in their system, they did not maintain it, and if there were an entrance to be built there, a permit would have to be sought. If this were to be a public road, the design would have to be approved by the Highway Department; if not, then the property to the rear would have to be developed entirely on private roadways. Then, said Mr. Brumback, it would be incumbent on the property owner to develop it. Mr. S. Bair broke in to say that "there is now a farm entrance that lies to the north of the road we're building." The Chairman asked Mr. Bair if he had any thoughts about requesting the highway department to take this into their system, if he'd had any conversation on this at all. "Yes, very tentative," was the reply. "I think if we build to their specifications, they will then take it in and maintain it -- this is my understanding." Mr. Brumback projected the possibility of a tremendous traffic jam "if we're not careful." He foresaw the likelihood of a great number of cars using the west- bound lane, and claimed that the future use of the nearby land ought to be built into our plans along with the cross - overs; that the entire area ought to be dealt with as a single problem rather than in a piecemeal way. He called for determining traffic density on the Rt. 7 side in light of the ordinances and applying this knowledge as it will affect the total project. Mr. Berg suggested that potential development of the adjacent land plus potential traffic from the mall can be esti- mated, and the highway department then can be asked directly if they will approve for that traffic flow. Mr. Bair said he had talked to Mr. Baker, who says he's already arranged for another entrance which would "lay east of the road we're talking about" 636 (PC 3/21/79) p. 6 and feed into the Hughes property, a quarter -mile to the east. To Mr. Rosenberger's question as to whether the State would put in a cross- over for the access road, Mr. Bair replied "I think you'd have to put them in, but Solenberger has a sixty -foot right -of -way at the east end of his property." Mr. Rosenberger asked, "No cross -over there ?" No, said Mr. Bair. Mr. Rosenberger wanted to know if the State would permit or build cross - overs. i Mr. Golladay asked if de- acceleration lanes would be provided by the developer. The State sets that forth, replied Mr. Bair. Mr. Brumback expressed the view that all the entrances had pretty well better be nailed down. When Mr. Bair stated "We've got them nailed down," Mr. Brumback said "You don't have highway department approval." To Mr. Brumback's expressed surprise that all the phases are not already behind them, Mr. Bair said "Would you believe I just got the Hughes portion of that, just yesterday ?" Mr. Brumback said he'd like to see the whole thing laid out on paper, with highway approval, before he'd be willing to approve Phase I. Mr. Bair asked if he would assure his i approval if D.C.A. got highway approval; Mr. Brumback said No, because he didn't i know what the highway department would require. He'd think the�.project had a lot of merit when all three entrances were approved. To Mr. Brumback's state- s ment that he was willing to make a motion to table the issue prior to getting together with the highway department, Mr. Bair quickly asked if!he'd be willing to add to his motion that he would reopen the matter as soon as the approval was obtained. Mr. Brumback moved, and Mr. Venskoske seconded, that the pititicn be tabled. I In the ensuing discussion as to what was needed, it was stressed that highway department agreement in writing rather than merely verbal assurance (Glenn..Bair said the verbal assurance had been obtained so long as there was no cross -over asked for, in the westernmost entrance.) Mr. Kuykendall was recognized, and made the point that the ordinance does contemplate stage- development approval, and since Mr. Bair has commitments 637 (PC 3/21/79) p. 7 to the two stores, he hopes for Stage I approval, and feels that even if further approval were not received, no harm would be done in the approval for the present two stores. Mr. Rosenberger, referring to Mr. Golladay's earlier mention of the Phase I approach, gave his support to the approval of the two stores. Mr. Golladay read from the Code, Sec. XXI- 116,(m) on stage development; Mr. Berg pointed out that this referred to the shopping center zoning, but that the district in this case is zoned B -2, so that it does not apply. The Chairman asked if approval could be given, contingent on highway depart- ment approval, and Mr. Berg stated that this was not possible: if approval were given and the east entrance failed to be approved, then the balance of the mall could be brought in with but two entrances to serve it. The Chairman asked Mr. Bair what penalty would he involved in a two -week delay, and Mr. Bair said "Not too much." The Chairman suggested a highway depart- ment representative might meet(either prior to the next session�or)with the Plan - ning Commission to determine official reaction. Mr. Berg summarized: the east entrance's commitment had beien the primary hurdle, and looked to be pretty much agreed upon. The problem !for the highway department, then, is principally a matter of numbers -- the volume of traffic, the numbers to be served. In the matter of off -site improvements at 81 and 7 ramp, an agreement needs to be struck. He said the consultant's report on this was quite acceptable; and that highway department input within two weeks is pos- sible. The Chairman asked if the representative would be likely to appear at the next Planning Commission meeting, was told Yes. In the discussion of the wording of the motion, Mr. Rosenberger suggested that the commitment for -the right -of -way for the east entrance and for making off -site improvements be incorporated in the motion. Mr. Rosenberger moved, Mr. Golladay seconded, and the vote was unanimous: BE IT RESOLVED, that this site plan be tabled until the next meeting to work out the east right -of -way and commitment for off -site improvements. NO (PC 3/21/79) p. 8 At this point a five - minute break was taken. AN ORDINANCE TO AMEND THE FREDERICK COUNTY CODE, Chapter 21, Zoning, adopted July 12, 1978, to amend Sections 21- 15(r), 21- 26(r), 21- 36(i), 21- 44(i), 21- 52(n), 21- 90(x), and 21- 101.2(1) to read: Section I: Church bulletin boards and identification signs and signs for non - profit service clubs and charitable associations, off-premise signs not to exceed eight square feet. Section II: This Ordinance shall be in full force and effect upon adoption by the Board of Supervisors of Frederick County. Mr. Berg was asked to report on information about the highway department's regulations on signs at previous P.C. meeting, and said no sign 8 feet square or less requires a highway department permit. He then added this information to the new wording above applicable to church bulletin boards and identification signs for non - profit service clubs and charitable associations, "off-premise signs not to exceed eight square feet." On their properties, any size sign is permitted. Mr. Golladay moved, Mr. Brumback seconded a motion to accept the revised wording. The vote was unanimous. BE IT RESOLVED, that Sections I and II be approved for recommendation to the Board of Supervisors. I Upon this action, the Commission turned: -;to a work session. Work Session Mr. Berg gave the background, that evening work sessions of the Planning Commission in which no business was discussed are proposed, though not budgeted at this time. One night a month was further suggested, with the intention of sticking to one project in order to bring that to final form, according to Mr. Brumback. Holding a regularly scheduled work session in the primary purpose, even if only once every two months. Mr. Rosenberger offered to take this to Finance Com- mittee. It was agreed that the yearly work schedule outreaches the actual agenda accomplished. The fourth Tuesday of each month at 7:30 during the summer 639 (PC 3/21/79) P. 9 months was set, not to start, however, in the current month (the 27th of March); to commence on Tuesday evening, April 24. The topic choice was allotted to the staff. Mr. Berg then spoke of the memo in this day's agenda addressing a previous session's request for a time -frame which gives a general over -view of the steps involved and time consumed in moving projects through the stages of review. He spoke also of having operating procedures for subdivisions, rezoning, and site plans, the steps for petitioners to take (also here included). As to point 1 i in the memorandum, Mr. Berg said it was something of a disclaimer, needing emphasis, as it is a problem which causes some trouble. Petitioners seldom bring in completed work, though they wish it to go through right away. The material gets,referred back to surveyors, engineers, and drops out of sight. Mr. Berg's message to the P.C., then, is that when members receive phone calls asking how soon, they would do well to emphasize the importance of compliance, good organization, clear goals, and follow- through, and the complained -of delays will be less of a problem. The Chairman mentioned that frequently the petitioner has a chip on his shoulder, he gets perturbed if anything goes wrong, and advocated helping Mr. Berg in any way possible. Mr. Brumback asked about the use of a checklist, and Mr. Berg replied that in every case but subdivisions, a checklist is used. There being no further business, Mr. Golladay moved for adjournment, Mr. Brumback seconded, and the motion was passed unanimously. BE IT RESOLVED, that the Planning Commission for the County of Frederick, Virginia, does hereby adjourn its meeting, there being no further business. Respectfully submitted, H. Ronald Berg, Secretary C. Lan on Gordon, Chairman